Comments on Bacon's Rebellion: Rule of Law Prevails: Transportation Authorities D...

we already have quite a bit of regional planning -...

2008-03-02T19:14:00.000-05:00

we already have quite a bit of regional planning - regional governance if you think about it.

The are hundreds, thousands of regional authorities already in existence - and 99 44/100% of them do exactly what they are supposed to do - provide infrastructure and services that are cost effective and reduce administrative redundancy.

The problem we have with MPOs and Planning Districts is the same one we have with MPOs, Planning Districts and VDOT district offices in that the boundaries overlap and this creates "issues".

At least give the GA .. SOME credit in that with the TAs, they did try to do them with some attention to MPOs.

We know that VDOT boundaries were drawn arbitrarily.. and not like the MPO boundaries at all which actually DO have some logic (even though EMR disagrees with it). The Planning Districts .. I don't know how they were done but I strongly suspect that also were done arbitrarily a long time ago.

look at this map and note they start at 1 at the SW corner of Virginia and continue north along the West Va border... 1, 2, 3, 4 ,5 6 and then start again at the Southern boarder of Virginia.

http://www.vapdc.org/aboutpdcs.htm

What I find wanting with EMR's views is basically that he disagrees with the current methods of drawing boundaries but he does not provide his own template of how he would draw them... and instead discusses things in a more ephemeral way... not satisfying at all.. because.. as Rogers says - we need to move on to something better than what we have.. and it will have to be evolutionary in nature not revolutionary if it is going to succeed in any practical and political sense.

And there actually is an opportunity to get into this.. with the downing of the TAs and the one year moratorium on proffers/impact fees where one of the issues is the realization that one-size-fits-all fees to NOT work with different areas in Va.

They started into it.. recognizing NoVa .. but it was ham-fisted in that they had no clear criteria for NoVa.. it was instead a political calculation to obtain NoVa legislators concurrence with the impact fees...

a few years ago, the GA actually created a Growth Commission headed by Tayloe Murphy.. but the builders were staunchly opposed to it and got it eventually killed.

With respect to folks that are opposed to regional governance.. I think they are not connected to realities...

yes.. there are issues with respect to turning lose unelected bodies .. infested by folks with business interests - whose primary involvement is to influence infrastructure decisions to better their own business prospects.

This is a huge failure of trust in the populace.

People do not trust folks they do not elect ... and not without good reasons.... IMHO.

They already see the MPOs as enemies of common citizenry; they don't understand what the MPOs do.. how they do it.. and why and they don't understand how common citizens can influence the MPOs decision-making - since they are not elected.

Planning Districts - at the citizen levels are even more arcane and more unknown and understood.

I essentially agree with Roger.. (we don't agree on everything for sure) we have some fundamental problems with effective governance - but I am pessimistic that the GA guys really have much motivation to deal with these issues despite the fact that their own study agency JLARC has done some good work in laying out the issues.

I think many in Virginia's GA are a bit too partisan and too lazy.. more interested in politicking than in fostering needed.. meaningful change in the way we do business with governance, land-use and transportation.

.. but give Va it's due.. most rating agencies love us.. for our conservative approach to finances...

at least we don't have the mob or slimy investment sharks involved in our pension funds (I hope).

To All -We will have a difficult time inour state ...

2008-03-02T17:39:00.000-05:00

To All -

We will have a difficult time in
our state ever getting the views
of some on this blog to become a
reality.

My view is we need to start down
a road to improve our situation.

We only have the ability to tackle
problems within our borders, but
we could pursue agreements with our
adjoining states to enter into such
an effort.

The ideal of Fundamental Change is
not within our future.

Thus, those who can't articulate a
new vision for us that is within our reach are failing to help us
deal with the complicated issues
confronting Virginia.

Rodger Provo

For example, the post of schools just above this o...

2008-03-02T15:15:00.000-05:00

For example, the post of schools just above this one.

Rodger says:"Merging our existing PDCs and MPOsint...

2008-03-02T15:12:00.000-05:00

Rodger says:

"Merging our existing PDCs and MPOs
into a new form of regional gover-
ments is a doable program."

That depends on what you call "doable."

PDCs and MPO have wildly different borders so "merging" if it included "adding" could result in functional regional Agency borders, except that:

The two largest New Urban Regions that lie partly in Virgina include many municipal jurisdictions in five other states.

More important, even beyond the mean-spirited nay-sayers, the vast majority of citizens do not want "regional" governance unless the change also addresses the problems associated with the dysfunctional existing sub-state (aka, municipal) governace structure.

They see it as just another layer of confusion and another group to tax citizens. Without Fundamental Change, they are right.

"Though such areas as Northern
Virginia [where is "Northern Virgina"?]have multiple PDCs and
MPOs, the area is so large and
the issues and needs vary from
the inner suburbs to the outer
suburbs and along various major transportation corridors."

The very reason that there must be Fundamental Change not just a "mini-regional" band-aide.

"Portland, Oregon's program may not
be perfect, but it has the best
effort in the country relative to
tackling regional problems via a
regional governance program."

Most would agree with the "not perfect" part of that sentence.

"Virginia's history is such it
would be a political disaster to
try to elminate our existing system of cities, towns and counties."

And it would be an even worse disaster to try ot move ahead with that sub-state system.

What you call "political disaster" is just that -- a disaster caused by and created for the benefit of politicians.

EMR

"We should examine other efforts
to tackle these issues in Canada,
Australia and Europe ... to help us create a Virginia plan for regional governments to deal with our planning, transportation and
utility issues."

Agreed and all of those have some more intelligent way to address subregional agencies. It is not just "planning, transportation and utility issues" that are the problem' It is all economic, social and physical parameters of functional First World society.

Sorry Rodger, the PDC / MPO approach would have worked in the 60s when there were Subregional Plans that could have resulted in functional settlement patterns.

That did not happen and that opportunity is now gone.

We need 21st century solutions for the 21st century dysfunctions that exist.

"Our existing local governments would continue to provide other public services such as education, health care, public safety and recreation, etc."

You do not have to go far on this Blog to find every one of thes governace functions found to be in need of the same changes as transport and utilities.

EMR

To All -Merging our existing PDCs and MPOsinto a n...

2008-03-02T14:20:00.000-05:00

To All -

Merging our existing PDCs and MPOs
into a new form of regional gover-
ments is a doable program.

Though such areas as Northern
Virginia have multiple PDCs and
MPOs, the area is so large and
the issues and needs vary from
the inner suburbs to the outer
suburbs and along various major transportation corridors.

Portland, Oregon's program may not
be perfect, but it has the best
effort in the country relative to
tackling regional problems via a
regional governance program.

Virginia's history is such it
would be a political disaster to
try to elminate our existing system of cities, towns and counties.

We should examine other efforts
to tackle these issues in Canada,
Australia and Europe ... to help us create a Virginia plan for regional governments to deal with our planning, transportation and
utility issues.

Our existing local governments would continue to provide other public services such as education, health care, public safety and recreation, etc.

Rodger Provo

Rodger Provo

Later Rodger said:"Virginia's local [a Core Confus...

2008-03-02T12:23:00.000-05:00

Later Rodger said:

"Virginia's local [a Core Confusing Word] governments were
created during the founding our
country, Colonial times - they are
unable to deal with the problems
of urban Virginia."

Very true except confusing because what are counties, urban counties, counties that are left-over parts of the Federal District, Cities with 19,000 residents next to counties with 1.1-Million residents, special districts, the list goes on.

"Virginia's state government is
weak, given our one term governor
and the power vested in our part-
time legislative body, the General
Assemby - they are unable to deal
with the problems of urban [or nonurban] Virginia."

Right again.

"Moving certain government functions
from our local [a Core Confusing Word] governments and our
state government to...

A Comprehensive, new Goverance structure.

"... regional governments (created by merging
our PDCs and MPOs) would give us the tools to better deal with our
tough planning, transportation and
utility issues."

Sorry, Rodger, that half step will only divert attention from the need for real, Fundamental Change.

"Such governments should be elected
and given new taxing authority for
these tasks. That authority and
revenue resources could be removed
from our local [Core Confusing Word] governments and state government."

What we have does not work but this would not either.

"What we have today does not work.
I agree with Larry Gross's posting
of 7:15 am.

New economic and energy realities
requires us to rise above the hard
nose anti-tax, anti-government ill
will of those who have us do just
nothing.

Rodger Provo"

Note to Rodger, sorry, I forgot the "d" in the first post.

EMR

Roger Said:"Virginia needs to adopt a statewidereg...

2008-03-02T12:09:00.000-05:00

Roger Said:

"Virginia needs to adopt a statewide
regional government (governance) system ..."

With you to that point. But as the poster from Portland said Fundamental Change cannot stop with a Regional-scale, elected governance body.

"using our planning district commissions to create elected, regional bodies to deal with Virginia's planning, transportation and utility needs."

Starting with PDCs would have been a good idea in the mid to late 60s when Virginia's PDC were a model for the nation-state.

They have been gutted by politics-as-usual and time have made them irrelevant. There are four PDC in just the Virgina portion of the Virginia Subregeion of the Washington-Baltimore New Urban Region.

"Portland, Oregon's metropolitan
regional planning government is a
model for such a system we should
study and copy."

Sorry, there is not a model anywhere we should "copy" not even in the EU where they have a 50 year head start.

EMR

Interesting part of the Virginia Code:§ 15.2-4217....

2008-03-02T10:49:00.000-05:00

Interesting part of the Virginia Code:

§ 15.2-4217.1. Specialized Transportation Incentive Fund.

The Specialized Transportation Incentive Fund (the "Fund") is established and shall be used to assist participating planning districts in the development of coordinated specialized transportation plans and projects. In order to be eligible to receive monies from the Fund, a planning district commission or single locality shall establish, in consultation with its metropolitan planning organization if one exists, an advisory transportation coordination committee and shall submit to the Disability Commission a plan for cost-effective coordination of specialized transportation services in the planning district or in localities within the planning district. Single localities may appoint an advisory transportation coordinating committee independent of the planning district commission and receive specialized transportation incentive funds if the locality is located in a regional planning district in which all other localities are recipients of the federal funds and subject to the provisions of Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336 (42 U.S.C. § 12131 et seq.). The advisory transportation coordination committee shall guide planning for the coordination and administration of specialized transportation with human service agencies, participating public transportation systems and, where appropriate, with private for-profit and nonprofit transportation providers. Advisory transportation coordination committees shall be composed of, but not limited to, elderly and disabled persons, providers of specialized transportation systems, participating public transportation systems, and local private for-profit and nonprofit transportation providers. Localities and public transportation systems subject to Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336 (42 U.S.C. § 12131 et seq.), shall not be required to participate in coordinated specialized transportation plans, but may participate at their option.

http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc1502000/15.2-4217.1.html

re: unelected boards, regional governance, et alHe...

2008-03-02T09:07:00.000-05:00

re: unelected boards, regional governance, et al

Headline:

Bill limiting power to authorize I-81 tolls passes General Assembly

Associated Press
Published: February 29, 2008

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - Virginia legislators want to be the only ones who can authorize putting tolls on Interstate 81,

yadda
yadda
blather....
ho hum....

okay.. here's the GOOD STUFF:

Legislators said the bill is needed so that the decision to place tolls on I-81 is not made by an unelected board.

http://www.wsls.com/sls/news/state_regional/govtpolitics/article/bill_limiting_power_to_authorize_i_81_tolls_passes/6536/

Folks - what is MORE .. unelected than VDOT Richmond making decisions about what a region or localities priorities should be?

Regional Governance is merely a common-sense recognition that boundaries drawn two centuries ago along some body of water ... no longer make sense in a modern urbanizing landscape.

Regional Jails, water authorities, libraries, ROADS... make sense

The idea that local, small governments do best should read the following:

"On Jan. 17, entrepreneur Joe Daniel, who said he was tired of the town and county's ineffectual bickering, delivered petitions representing 15 percent of the town's voters to the circuit judge.

Those petitions ask that a referendum be held to allow the Town of Culpeper government to become part of Culpeper County's government.

The two governments now have one year in which to come up with a consolidation plan. If approved by the judge, the plan would go before town voters the following November."

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/022008/02062008/354296

or this:

"In 1968, when Virginia divided into planning districts, the intention was “...to encourage and facilitate local government cooperation and state-local cooperation in addressing on a regional basis problems of greater than local significance. The cooperation resulting from this chapter is intended to facilitate the recognition and analysis of regional opportunities and take account of regional influences in planning and implementing public policies and services” (Code of Virginia, Section 15.2-4207). Since then, PDCs (a.k.a. regional councils, regional commissions, and councils of government) have been meeting the needs of local and state government by building regional approaches to issues like economic development, solid waste management and legislative priorities."

http://www.vapdc.org/

I know this comes as a shock perhaps.. but there ARE issues that are Regional in nature and that are solved best by Regional approaches.

The fact that bad government can and does occur at the State, local AND Regional level is a pretty lame excuse for cherry-picking Regional - as the main culprit IMHO.

To All -Virginia's local governments werecreated d...

2008-03-02T02:35:00.000-05:00

To All -

Virginia's local governments were
created during the founding our
country, Colonial times - they are
unable to deal with the problems
of urban Virginia.

Virginia's state government is
weak, given our one term governor
and the power vested in our part-
time legislative body, the General
Assemby - they are unable to deal
with the problems of urban Virginia.

Moving certain government functions
from our local governments and our
state government to regional governments (created by merging
our PDCs and MPOs) would give us the tools to better deal with our
tough planning, transportation and
utility issues.

Such governments should be elected
and given new taxing authority for
these tasks. That authority and
revenue resources could be removed
from our local governments and state government.

What we have today does not work.
I agree with Larry Gross's posting
of 7:15 am.

New economic and energy realities
requires us to rise above the hard
nose anti-tax, anti-government ill
will of those who have us do just
nothing.

Rodger Provo

A new layer of government with new taxing authorit...

2008-03-01T12:21:00.000-05:00

A new layer of government with new taxing authority sounds a lot like more new taxes. Why would we want this?

We have a statewide government - called state government. Let's get them to do their job.

Or, if the counties aren't regional enough to do their job, then lets merge some into fewer and larger counties. When fairfax can no longer export its housing problem to PW and Loudoun, maybe they will rethink how they do business.

There is only X money to go around. Dividing it up among a new layer of government merely masks the same old problem: priorities.

The last thing we need is yet another layer of government and another layer of approvals to get the same job done.

Speaking to an neighbor recently, he said he had to get four permits to dig a pond. Soil and water Conservation, Zoning, Planning, and Corps of Engineers. By the time he got done, the permits cost more than twice as much as the pond. The permit from the corps was $4.50 per linear foot.

How crazy do things have to get before we say, this is crazy? We have way too much no and not near enough yes.

Excuse me Roger - I live in Portland Oregon and a ...

2008-03-01T12:12:00.000-05:00

Excuse me Roger - I live in Portland Oregon and a great many of us HATE Metro. It is just another huge, tax sucking governmental agency. Remember, it's easier to control smaller groups than larger ones (see manager 101). Cities are easier to control than counties due to size, counties easier than the state for the same reason. Here they added a bloated governmental agency which covered three counties (while still retaining the county governments). We were told ... er, sold a bill of goods, that THIS was the model the Feds wanted and that all areas would be doing this. Over 20 years later we are the ONLY ones still stuck with this white elephant.

Keep government small, they do less damage that way. Trust me, Metro IS part of the problem here.

this is a really fine line but none-the-less a Con...

2008-03-01T07:15:00.000-05:00

this is a really fine line but none-the-less a Constitutional one.

And.. hold on to your hat, I actually agree with Roger Provo - at least as a second, alternate path to governance and decision-making.

the first path is for the State to go back and merely ENABLE taxes for each locality to approve or not with the carrot/stick much like the VRE 2% gas tax and other "local option" taxes.

In other words, you get to use the tax if you approve it locally by vote or referenda in each jurisdiction and you get to keep part of it and part of it goes to the regional authority - where just like with the VRE Unelected Board (and other regional boards) - they spend that money on narrowly defined purposes - like Transportation projects.

If folks thinks this is still illegal, then the funding method for VRE itself - as well as other Regional Authorities are - also at risk.

The second path that Rodger mentions is an elected regional board just for Transportation whose boundaries are defined by our existing Planning District Boundaries (Friendly amendment here - MPO boundaries - otherwise we'll have a nightmare of overlapping and competing rules).

Portland Oregon is the only citizen elected MPO in the country.

Portland Oregon also puts to the voters major new spending and projects for approval.

It's not pretty - but it involves voters in both transportation and land use issues.

I think it's disingenuous on the part of those that say that the state should be responsible for - taxing locals and then turning right around and giving that money back to the locals to spend with only cursory approval of citizens via the current arcane process that virtually no citizen understands much less can influence.

Six Year Road plans in Virginia are a joke in terms of meaningful citizen involvement.

What this does is let local officials use transportation money for economic development while blaming VDOT for the traffic problems that are created.

It's really a bogus .. irresponsible approach to land-use decision-making in my view.

If we want the state to tax for transportation then the state should also determine land use decisions.

Take those decisions away from the localities and put them in the same hands of the folks who have to someone make limited transportation dollars "work".

In other words, whoever makes the land-use decisions needs to be accountable for the impacts to the transportation grid for those decisions.

For years and years, I have watched local BOS do their own version of rope-a-dope with regard to essentially evading responsibility for their land-use decisions and blame VDOT.

So.. yeah.. they'd love the State to take the hit for higher taxes for transportation instead of having to directly tax the locals to fix the problems caused by land-use decisions.

Roger has advocated statewide land-use planning and if folks think about it - that's what the Virginia Homebuilders have asked for - even though they may not realize it.

By advocating for state control and sanctioning of impact fees, they are, in effect, inviting the state to further determine where those fees should be implemented and how much.

so two potential paths -

* enable local option taxes for regional transportation authorities (really just expanding the existing 2% gas tax option)

* have regional authorities governed by elected reps from each jurisdiction.

I suspect that the former is going to be the path of least resistance but one problem that it will not solve is the one is HR/TW where there is not unanimous support for regional authorities at the jurisdictional level.

but you can't really accomplish regional planning if half the localities in the region do not want to do it.

Those jurisdictions still want VDOT to fund roads via an increase in statewide taxes... but I don't think this is going to happen...either...

The choice at the end of the day problem is going to be - the ability for the jurisdiction to
impose local-option transportation taxes - or not.

Most of RoVA, outside of the urban nodes, has virtually no interest in doing this - at least right now.

So - in the end - this could end up being the creation/enabling of local option taxes - on a statewide basis... take the deal or not...

Any group of adjacent localities that wants to take the deal... can.

is whether or not -they want to do local option

To All -Virginia needs to adopt a statewideregiona...

2008-03-01T03:36:00.000-05:00

To All -

Virginia needs to adopt a statewide
regional government system using our planning district commissions to create elected, regional bodies to deal with Virginia's planning, transportation and utility needs.

Portland, Oregon's metropolitan
regional planning government is a
model for such a system we should
study and copy.

Rodger Provo

Let each county or city impose higher taxes for tr...

2008-02-29T21:24:00.000-05:00

Let each county or city impose higher taxes for transportation, but couple it with a mandatory adequate public facilities law. No extra taxes without real, enforceable limits on building when adequate public facilities are absent.

TMT

Great News!However, my prediction is that they wil...

2008-02-29T20:23:00.000-05:00

Great News!

However, my prediction is that they will find a way around the decision.

I predict something along the lines of "Regional Transportation Funds" in which localities have the option to participate.

Elected officials from participating localities would then use their own general fund revenues to create a larger "slush fund" to finance regional road projects.

Hold on to your hat, the fun has just begun!

RBV

Well if any of the cities in Tidewater are serious...

2008-02-29T19:00:00.000-05:00

Well if any of the cities in Tidewater are serious about backing out of the HRTA, they better be having a special session of their own before the GA meets.

Once the GA comes up with a plan and legislatively assesses the taxes, those cities will be on the hook for the money. The HRTA isn't dead, only the ability to levy taxes based upon their own authority.

Unelected Subregional Agencies are the pits and no...

2008-02-29T18:56:00.000-05:00

Unelected Subregional Agencies are the pits and now they are in the pits.

Now let us start to talk about real Regional Agencies that are elected,

And to satisfy Groveton, limit the power of State Agencies to state issues on the way to redrawing the state borders to refelect economic, social and physical reality in 2008 and going forward.

EMR

I note the first-flush response is to go back and ...

2008-02-29T18:19:00.000-05:00

I note the first-flush response is to go back and have the state levy the tax and then deliver the proceeds to the TA for prioritization.

In fact, some claim that, that is how the law was first worded but that Kaine changed it in response to localities requests.

but I note also.. that one of the reasons that the proposed bills to flush the HR/TW TA were killed was that legislators did not want to "open up a can of worms" with respect to the TA concept in general.

Further, at least 3 and probably 8 different additional regional areas were actively queuing up for their own regional versions of the TA - had the law passed muster...

.. so .. if this is going to stay a dead-horse .. it will only after a lot more beating of it... in a special session...

... so.. I wonder what the street "spread" is on .. at least part of any future deal.. will include - a statewide gas tax increase?

50-50? who is taking the odds?

:-)

geeze .. between this and the Dulles kerfuffle, Kaine is going to have a king-sized headache... can he really afford to go to Texas to politic for Obama?

The General Assembly is a pack of blithering idiot...

2008-02-29T17:45:00.000-05:00

The General Assembly is a pack of blithering idiots. Watching these morons is like watching a 3 Stooges episode - only without any pretense of humor.

The Dillon Rule must be broken. These fools must have their power (to a large degree) recinded.

Great victory for The People. This bill was unCons...

2008-02-29T14:11:00.000-05:00

Great victory for The People.

This bill was unConstitutional from the start.

I think the Court was wrong to not find for the argument that there was more than one purpose in the bill.

But, the rest - unelected Regional Government - is dead. Hooah.

It isn't tough (for Hampton Roads/Tidewater) to propose a bill with funding formula for the top 3 projects.

When the Commonwealth gets more money, then add a few more top priority projects.

Virginia already allows regional authorities.If no...

2008-02-29T13:51:00.000-05:00

Virginia already allows regional authorities.

If not mistaken, adjacent localities can form a transportation authority that then allows them to levy a 2% gas tax.

I think the problem that the GA attempted to deal with is what happens if not every adjacent jurisdiction wants to join a regional authority.

In other words, how can you plan regional roads if several jurisdictions won't join?

so trying to collect money to improve a major road that bisects a region - won't work if the jurisdiction in the middle won't cooperate.

The ways the MPOs approached this was that they said that Federal money would not be allocated to localities that did not join.

The State could do this also... by enabling the tax - at the state level and distributing it to only the localities that joined.

They sort of do this right now with some road money that is available only on a matching basis.

p.s.

OGS - I could be.. especially if I knew who OGS was... :-)

A committee clerk gave the indication to expect a ...

2008-02-29T13:28:00.000-05:00

A committee clerk gave the indication to expect a special session on transportation in light of this decision... any guesses as to what they'll try to do? Maybe just the same thing in a less unconstitutional fashion?

Hey Larry,Are you the same Larry Gross pictured in...

2008-02-29T13:04:00.000-05:00

Hey Larry,

Are you the same Larry Gross pictured in Ed Grove's book canoeing the Rivanna and the North Anna?

-OGS

WOW!I'll bet some of those guys in NoVa... between...

2008-02-29T12:42:00.000-05:00

WOW!

I'll bet some of those guys in NoVa... between the Dulles rail meltdown, housing meltdown and now the TA meltdown are growing some gray hairs .. at an accelerated rate.

I'm still a supporter of Regional Authorities for Regional issues but I was not thrilled with unelected nature of those making the decisions.

But after all.. we already have Jail, Library, water/sewer, and solid waste Regional Authorities governed by separate unelected boards.

The difference is that those boards all get their money from separate jurisdictions that each vote on the amount of money .. to be given to the authority and those votes done by direct elected BOS.

Transportation Authorities already exist in Va anyhow that allows localities that join to assess a 2% tax on gasoline (similar to how VRE works).

I predict that the issue will not die.. but where it will end up - ultimately could be very interesting and perhaps entertaining.